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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1994-08-10 ad Hoc Haven Street Task Force Minutes1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Volume I Pages 1 to 82 Exhibits COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS TOWN OF READING -------------------------------x 25 HAVEN STREET SALE TASK FORCE MEETING MINUTES -------------------------------x Date: Wednesday, August 10, 1994 Held: 230 Ash Street Reading, Massachusetts 01867 Time: 6:50 p.m. Reporter: Linda Holmes DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. Professional Shorthand Reporters 59 Temple Place Boston, Massachusetts 02111 (617) 542-0039 DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 APPEARANCES: Jonathan Edwards, Town Planner James Blomley, RMLD Mollie Ziegler, Assessors Richard Howard, CPDC Phil Pacino, Chairman William Burditt, BOS DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S MR. PACING: There is not a quorum presently available so instead of a formal meeting we are having a discussion among the members of the committee, more discussion of what's been discussed in previous times. For those who have not been present at other times. This is where we started. We set-up basically what we talked about was setting up a mission, a mission statement. This handwriting is Fred's obviously not mine because it can be read, and the mission we came up with was to maximize proceeds to tax payers through a process that will encourage inquiries, be least restrictive, enhance the area and be economically sensitive, commercially sensitive, excuse me. MR. EDWARDS: What does that mean? MR. BURDITT: Needs of the communitY as far as what we need for businesses, something that goes in there and that meets all the guidelines of the town master plan. MS. ZIEGLER: We don't want Shaw's or Demoulas there. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. PACINO: I think what was discussed here in terms of enhancing the area. You wouldn't want something down there that's going to dehance the area. MR. HOWARD: I like that. That communicates it well. MR. PACINO: That was our mission. Then we came up with issues that needed answers. That is where we were next after that. First of all, we talked about the Chapter 21E and there was no active issues on that, Jim, as I remember. MR. BLOMLEY: Right. MR. PACINO: On.the environmental. MR. BLOMLEY: That's correct. MR. PACINO: We talked about the due diligence. We talked about the oil tank, the location and the capacity. The purchaser will probably require removal of the tank due to the fact it's over 20 years, that's the law as I remember correctly on that. MR. BLOMLEY: That's correct, yes. MR. PACINO: Then we also discussed about transformers that are in the yard there. There are no PCB's in the transformers. There's DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 also underground ducts on the site which may require an easement or a move off site, and, again, there. may be a requirement for easement or moving of the transformers by the RMLD that is on the site at the particular time. We talked about asbestos possibly to determine MR. BLOMLEY: There is asbestos in the joints on the boiler and on the floor tile. MR. PACINO: Then we went into zoning. We talked about the parking lot distances, we defined, what were they. We came up with a number of 300 feet in terms of the parking lot as to the distances they would be in. Then we had question on restrictions on lots within the building area. MS. ZIEGLER: Building in the area. MR. PACINO: Building in the area. MS. ZIEGLER: Right. MR. PACING: Restrictions on any of our neighbor's lots. That's one of the things we were asking for information from the CPDC. Looking for any restrictions, special permits on continuous properties, our neighbors in the building, what our options were for rezoning, how could it be changed. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19. 20 21 22 23 24 I believe the property is now business B. MS. ZIEGLER: Yes. MR. BLOMLEY: That's correct. MR. PACINO: Whether we go to business C or A. We talked about what implications there are from the master plan. Is it in the 100 year flood plain? And we needed a more detailed zoning map of the specific area. Can we put restrictions on the building's use? I don't know if it's appropriate at this time since we got the CPDC to have them answer some of these questions. MR. BURDITT: No. MS. ZIEGLER: Why can't they give us the information? It's for informational purposes. MR. BURDITT: It's not a meeting. I thought it was a review. MR. PACINO: I think part of the information, Jonathan, do you want to answer some of these? MR. EDWARDS: I work for Mr. Burditt. MR. BURDITT: I don't have a legal problem. MR. EDWARDS: This is for information. MR. EDWARDS: It's information that DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 will be going into the minutes of the record. The information will be the same no matter how many people are here so I don't have a problem. MR. BURDITT: I'm not a lawyer so I don't know. MR. PACINO: I think we are going to have to have the information anyway. MS. ZIEGLER: We can stand on the corner and talk to them about it. MR. BLOMLEY: We can go up and request town hall and get the same information. MR. BURDITT: Absolutely. You're right. MR. PACING: Clearly we are going to have to go over this at the next meeting anyway to bring the absent members up-to-date. MR. BURDITT: The other half. MR. EDWARDS: Dick, do we want to take them in order? 300 feet from the municipal lot, we measured this by the most direct walking route and it's clear that this property is within 300 feet. So from a regulatory point of view no on site parking is required. It would probably be useful to add here that parking in downtown is at a premium DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and it would be, in my opinion at least, not in public interest to do away with any parking spaces you can help. Dick, do you have anything to add or detract from, enhance or dehance? MR. HOWARD: The only question that I have is what status does the agreement with Atlantic have on weekend use of the parking? Does that go away with the sale? MS. ZIEGLER: I forgot about that. MR. BLOMLEY: That's not an official thing. That is just a request. It is a public lot after normal work hours and on holidays. It is a public lot so anyone can park there. MR. HOWARD: Because it's owned by a public body. MR. BLOMLEY: That's correct. It's stated so on the fence on the entry to the parking lot when it cannot be used. MR. HOWARD: So if this was sold to a private party and they restricted parking, and that has a negative impact on the area, it's obvious There's no magic there. MS. ZIEGLER: Put.down there parking DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 lot is available when building is not open. MR. PACING: After five on weekdays. MS. ZIEGLER: When building not open. MR. BLOMLEY: Nonbusiness hours. MS. ZIEGLER: Parking lot available for parking in the area on nonbusiness hours. MR. PACING: Nothing that I'm aware that there is a formal written agreement with them. MS. ZIEGLER: No, I think Atlantic MR. BLOMLEY: He is just notifying people that the lot is available. It's not in the agreement between the MR. BURDITT: Municipal parking lot, I think from what I'm hearing, we've restricted the use to the business hours of the municipal use of the building. And in other times it's open to anybody because it's a municipal lot. MR. EDWARDS: Same as town hall parking lot. MR. PACINO: There's times in that lot when I have been down there they park in the middle of that lot, department employees, because there's just not enough room. You occasionally got a few folks who park from the stores there that makes the DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 problem even worse. MR. BLOMLEY: When we don't catch them. MR. EDWARDS: How many spaces are in there? MR. BLOMLEY: 24. MR. EDWARDS: One of the missions you had was to enhance the area and be commercially sensitive, and I think that without detracting from the value of the property or its marketability if those equivalent number of spaces or close to it can be kept it helps with that mission. MR. HOWARD: Particularly if one of the conditions in the RFP or P&S said during nonbusiness hours this would be available to the public. I don't know if you'd want to do that or, not. MR. BURDITT: It's something that needs to be addressed. MR. EDWARDS: Point of supply and demand, if the supply is missing the same amount of parking is going to take place maybe even more and there's less accommodation for it. So that 24 cars will crowd out, you know, either not park or will DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 crowd the rest of the space that is available. MR. BLOMLEY: You can go there as an example on a Saturday and you will not find a parking space. MR. EDWARDS: You have to go way down, I think, to the Depot lot to find them. MS. ZIEGLER: Are employees parking there because there's no limit on the hours? MR. BLOMLEY: What I observed is it's a variety of people that park there. People that come down to do their shopping, go over to Johnson's or go over to the Last Corner. It's not just Atlantic. MS. ZIEGLER: It's easier to get out of there than the other parking lot at times when it's crowded. MR. BLOMLEY: It's full on the weekends for the most part. Not so much on Sundays. I'd probably say it's probably 75 percent full on Sundays but it has a great use on Saturday. MR. PACING: Atlantic employees on Saturday are parking in that lot. MR. BLOMLEY: I would say that the greater majority but I have seen a lot of people DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that just come and do errands and leave. There is a lot of that traffic in and out. MR. BURDITT: I think Atlantic employees can park at the Depot. MR. EDWARDS: Yes, there was an agreement between the town and Atlantic about that. MS. ZIEGLER: On Weekdays. MR. EDWARDS: Yes. They were to be given resident stickers. MS. ZIEGLER: Okay. MR. EDWARDS: That may change if ridership picks up. MS. ZIEGLER: If the building is sold there's 24 vehicles in that area that are going to come down here so you don't know what kind of vehicle usage that building is going to promote or need until you sell it and what's it going to do. MR. EDWARDS: During light department business hours, yes, that's true, they do come down here. But, again, there's a shortage of parking in downtown. If you were to, we did this about four or five years ago, did a rough tally and if you added up all the spaces that each business property would be required to have there's a shortage of about 350 DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ,15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 parking spaces downtown. So the loss of any would be serious or would be detrimental and go on to what our neighbors are doing. MR. EDWARDS: Restrictions and special permits within the zoning bylaw since you're likely not to be selling to another utility company. MR. PACING: Do you know that under Business B it's illegal to be a utility in that building? MR. EDWARDS: It's a town use that is exempt. But as McDonald's is learning, there are certain things that trigger site plan review, and in McDonald's case it was alteration expansion, in this case it would be change and use, and I think you should put in RFP that site plan review is required. We'd even give you the application documents if you want to include that so people can see what's involved. MS. ZIEGLER: Even if they don't change the building at all? MR. EDWARDS: Right. MR. BURDITT: They'd have to change it somewhat. Wouldn't they have to make it handicap acceptable? DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, all current codes would have to be meta MS. ZIEGLER: Even if they didn't touch a thing? MR. HOWARD: Change in use. MR. EDWARDS: Since it would be necessarily going from public utility to something. MR. PACINO: One of the things that came up at the last meeting was, and I was struck by it, if anybody gets it they may have to tear the building down, is that a possibility? MR. EDWARDS: There would be no requirement to tear it down. MR. HOWARD: But they could. MR. PACINO: Renovations, are they going to renovate it? MR. EDWARDS: They could tear it down and we wouldn't restrict that. I can tell you the historical commission would like to see the facade kept because it does represent a certain period of design. MR. HOWARD: Tear it down and put up a four story building there. MR. EDWARDS: We could go up to 45 DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 feet. MS. ZIEGLER: It won't take it. It's not structurally sound. MR. BURDITT: Not on that building but tear it down. MR. HOWARD: Full width of the site. MR. EDWARDS: I tend to think the market is not going to support four story construction. Maybe two, not likely more than that. So I think we could rely on the market forces to control the size. MS. ZIEGLER: So anybody who buys it has to come up to code. MR. EDWARDS: Anybody who buys it and seeks financing would need to bring it up to code. MR. BURDITT: Wouldn't anybody that buys it seek a change in use? MR. EDWARDS: They'd have to go through site plan review but that's distinct from meeting handicap and architectural variances and building codes. There are two separate but parallel sets of laws. MR. BURDITT: I can't imagine CPDC allowing it. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 16 MR. EDWARDS: Well, legally CPDC cannot concern itself with what happens inside a building. code? MR. BURDITT: Even if it doesn't meet MR. EDWARDS: Yes. Because that is a responsibility of our ageny in the purview of other agencies. concerns that mentioned the would trigger the setbacks. setbacks. MR. BLOMLEY: I think one of the came up at the last meeting when you change of use, I didn't think that a site plan review, was the fact of It doesn't meet the current zoning MR. EDWARDS: Existing building, the only one that would apply would be the 20 foot rear setback, right? MR. BLOMLEY: I'm not sure. Yes, it doesn't have a 20 the rear setback is on the property line. MS. ZIEGLER: How about the side? MR. EDWARDS: There's no required side or front setbacks only a 20 rear setback, and as long as the building is maintained and built upon DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 17 basically the walls kept up of the existing building the structure is grandfathered so you wouldn't need to tear off the back 10 feet of the building. Now, if the building is demolished so that the four walls don't remain as an intrical entity then the grandfathered status would be lost and the 20 foot setback would have to be adhered to at that point. MR. BLOMLEY: Does that mean if somebody purchased it and left the four walls then built over it to go up they'd have to have the 20 foot setback on the second floor? MR. EDWARDS: That's an interesting question. MR. HOWARD: They'd have to petition ZBA. MR. EDWARDS: Current operation recently in effect the January decision of the state supreme court said no, the 20 foot setback only applies in this case, to the first floor. So the second floor, anything higher than the first floor would need to have either a variance or the setback. Now, if you were selling last year you could go up on the existing footprint. MR. HOWARD: Just say that you'd have DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to step back on the second floor. MR. EDWARDS: Yes, or get a variance, or at least hope you could get a variance, a variance within the discussion of the Board of Appeals. Also, you could gut the inside of the building if you kept the four walls. Those four walls are grandfathered. You can't tear down a whole building except for the back 20 feet of it and then MS. ZIEGLER: You could even take the roof off. MR. EDWARDS: Yes. MR. PACING: That would trigger the site plan review though if you gutted the whole building. MR. EDWARDS: No, it's a change in use that triggers site plan review. MR. PACING: No matter what they do they'd end up with a site plan review you're saying? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. Any buyer from the light department wouldn't be able to avoid site plan review because it's necessarily a change in use unless you sell to another public utility. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 19 MS. ZIEGLER: You can't do that with a private one. MR. EDWARDS: Yes, you could because the use would be grandfathered. MS. ZIEGLER: Even though it's against Business B? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. MR. HOWARD: You say restrictions. MR. EDWARDS: Mass. Electric or New England Telephone could buy the light department building and use it as a grandfathered use without site plan review, but that would be the only type of case. MR. HOWARD: How about restrictions on lots within the building area? Are you talking about. MR. PACING: I think what we were asking MR. HOWARD: The building next to it. MR. PACING: Our neighbors. Is there any restrictions that we should be aware of of neighbors that are around us in that building? MR. EDWARDS: I'm not aware of any but let's give Jim some work. If Jim went to the town DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 clerk's office any special permits or have a variance that were issued on the Board of Appeals would be on record there. MS. ZIEGLER: Filed by lot? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. Well, they are filed by street address. I'm not aware of any but there's lots, particularly old cases that I'm not aware of. MS. ZIEGLER: Rivers Crossing didn't get any? MR. EDWARDS: I don't know. MR. HOWARD: You're going that far away? MS. B area. Isn't tha MR. have. I know they MS. parking one. ZIEGLER: It's all in the Business t Business B area? EDWARDS: Rivers Landing may did go through site plan review. ZIEGLER: They tried to get a MR. PACINO: Would you want to go that far away? Would that really have that big of an effect on the building? MS. ZIEGLER: I don't know. MR. BURDITT: It's a couple of DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 buildings away, that's not very far away. MR. PACING: It's where the old base used to be. MR. EDWARDS: I can tell you the effect of any variances that were granted are visible now. MR. BURDITT: Rivers Landing is not next to Gould Street. MR. BLOMLEY: The only one I could think of is Atlantic, when you face it on the right hand side they're right out at the street line, I think. MR. EDWARDS: But they do not have a front setback either. MR. BLOMLEY: There was a renovation that took place, that would be the only one I could think of off the top of my head. MR. EDWARDS: You usually don't get many variances in Business B because there are so few dimensional restrictions. There's not much to seek variances from. MR. PACING: Take a look at the town clerk's office. MS. ZIEGLER: I'm more concerned with DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 22 Green Street and those service stations back there. That's old stuff. Is that all B back there? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. MS. ZIEGLER: I think some of those homes are B. MR. EDWARDS: All of those houses are B. B district is bounded by the tracks. MR. BLOMLEY: How far does it go up Green Street towards the square? MR. EDWARDS: Along the back line of McDonald's and the gas stations on the eastern side of Main Street. MR. BURDITT: We are not looking for that. All we are looking for is, I think, a couple of properties to either side or across the street. MR. EDWARDS: All those houses on Green and Gould and Ash Street are all in the Business .B zone. MR. BURDITT: I think what we're looking for is, you know, any restrictions on the couple of properties contiguous or next to contiguously used. MR. EDWARDS: They are not grandfathered I'm sorry, they would be DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 grandfathered, yes. MS. ZIEGLER: You can't have any residential in there. MR. EDWARDS: That's correct. To answer the question about rezoning, it's not legal. Rezoning wouldn't be legal because it's one lot and it would be spot zoning. So any rezoning would have to involve the significant area bigger than one lot. MR. HOWARD: What would be the advantage of doing it, if you could? MR. EDWARDS: I don't know. What do you have in mind about that question? MR. PACING: Could you put a municipal overlay district on it? Specifically, I think, and maybe I should get one of the other charts down here, if we go to Business B there's a restriction on industrial. MS. ZIEGLER: Computer, computer stuff. MR. PACINO: Right. If somebody was coming in that was, I don't know, maybe a high tech or something that wanted to do computer work in that building right now I see there's restrictions on DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 it. That's the kind of thing we were thinking. MR. HOWARD: Light manufacturing, is that what you're talking about? MR. PACINO: Yes, something like that. MR. HOWARD: I don't know. Would you want that in that building? MR. PACING: I don't know. That's the question. MR. EDWARDS: In fact, we don't allow manufacturing anywhere but Business A. MR. BURDITT: That's correct. That's part of the reason why the question MS. ZIEGLER: Computer services, is that manufacturing? MR. EDWARDS: Where does it say computer? MS. ZIEGLER: Under industrial uses. MR. PACINO: I talked to Peter today as to one of the reuses. There's a bakery that wanted to come in, I don't know if you know the Gingerbread Factory over in Winchester, they've made an inquiry into the building. They would like to come in and bake gingerbread and ship them out to DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 places. Is that going to be allowed in Business B? MR. EDWARDS: So you're saying a factory? MR. PACINO: You could consider that manufacturing. MS. ZIEGLER: Consumer services. MR. EDWARDS: We never interpreted it to be industrial. MR. HOWARD: But it's not for on site sale it's for off site. MR. PACINO: Right. MR. EDWARDS: That's an interesting question. You'd have to ask the zoning officer. MS. ZIEGLER: Are you the zoning officer? MR. BURDITT: That's the reason we are hung up with all these CPDC questions. MR. PACINO: This is where we're coming from. MR. EDWARDS: If the Gingerbread Factory yes, I think there would be a mistake for them not to take advantage of the market that's there and offer some retail. If they did some retail sales there as well as baking then it DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 wouldn't be manufacturing. MS. ZIEGLER: They could be a wholesale business in there. MR. EDWARDS: Yeah. MR. BURDITT: I don't know, say retail business with the option of having overloaded excess capacity, if you will. MS. ZIEGLER: Can we restrict things that are Business B in our RFP? MR. EDWARDS: You could. In fact, that is one thing I was going to raise a little later. You could make an RFP as the seller you can make the RFP more restrictive than the zoning is. MS. ZIEGLER: We could cut out gas stations? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. That was going to be my worry, basically industrial and automotive uses. MS. ZIEGLER: That is one of ours, too. MR. PACING: That is one of our concerns over here. MR. EDWARDS: Now, the interesting DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 27 thing about that would be the equivalent say to the Valvoline case where Valvoline was used by right but subject to site plan review because there's a change in use and CPDC is not obligated to approve any particular site plan presented for use by right. And CPDC felt that the site plan and several revisions that were submitted were not acceptable under the site plan review by law. MS. ZIEGLER: This was the Northwood Main Street thing? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. My that kind of thing could happen with on this site. There would be little possibility of a site plan review me specialty cases even though it would permitted use. suspicion is automotive use conceivable eting CPDC be for MS. ZIEGLER: We could restrict our MR. EDWARDS: You could take the Gordon, not the solution, and just not sell it for that kind of purpose which would frankly make it a lot more legally grounded. MS. ZIEGLER: You have some of the answers we wanted. MR. PACING: That is a question here. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Can we put restrictions on business in uses? MR. EDWARDS: You don't want a lawyer if any of this stuff ever goes to court you don't want a lawyer getting these minutes. MR. PACING: This is a discussion, not a formal meeting. MR. BURDITT: That's correct. MR. EDWARDS: It's legally the case that CPDC is not obligated to accept any site plan that's presented to it. They have to be satisfied that it meets the purposes of the bylaw. I did my job, I got McDonald's before the commission, you're not thinking what to do with it. MS. ZIEGLER: I still have this question about computer services being industrial. MR. EDWARDS: Well, Mollie, this allows it, doesn't it? MS. ZIEGLER: No. MR. EDWARDS: No, it doesn't. What do you mean? MS. ZIEGLER: If somebody comes and wants to set-up MR. PACINO: A software development company that comes in. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. ZIEGLER: Yes. MR. EDWARDS: Computer company that went into Rivers Landing and they get by they're sort of in the used computer business and they fix them and they sell them on the site. I consider that to be retail and consumer services. MS. ZIEGLER: I'm talking about somebody who comes in and does data entry there, sets up systems and does work for people, sets up as an office heading it may well be considered an office use or, yes, office use. That's computer services, I think. MS. ZIEGLER: Is using your computer there and giving services to other people MR. EDWARDS: Well, my impression from what I've heard of people like Ron Buclay who were around in that stage of the development of the bylaw was that when it was in the big computer days it was kind of heavy industrial stuff. MS. ZIEGLER: Okay. MR. EDWARDS: Now with PC's and so forth you could probably make the argument that maybe that part of the bylaws kind of antiquated or you could, a lot of conceivable computer uses can DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 come under consumer services or office categories. MR. PACINO: You think the office capacity, say if an engineering firm wanted to come in there? MR. EDWARDS: MS. ZIEGLER: MR. EDWARDS: computer doesn't mean you c service restrictions. MS. ZIEGLER: Oh, definitely. There's a problem Just because you use a ome under computer They would be research and development. MR. EDWARDS: Well, it's an office. A lot of it is kind of fine line. We try to be reasonable with the type of interpretations. MR. HOWARD: I think computer services I was thinking of like making chips or something like that. MR. EDWARDS: Yes. MR. BURDITT: That's manufacturing. MR. HOWARD: That's manufacturing. What is computer services. I don't understand. MR. BURDITT: That was the question. MR. EDWARDS: I'm not sure anymore given the technology has changed and the bylaw DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 hasn't. MR. BURDITT: By research and development, is that biotech? What is research and development anymore? MR. EDWARDS: That's why people have to interpret these things and people authorized to do so and pretty soon it will be somebody else, the building inspector and not me that has to. MR. PACINO: What about the master are there any implications to the property because of the master plan? MR. EDWARDS: Do you want to go first? Dick brought the master plan with him. MR. HOWARD: That doesn't mean I know what's in it. MR. BURDITT: Are there any restrictions because of the master plan? MR. EDWARDS: Master plan doesn't offer restrictions, it offers MR. HOWARD: Goals. MR. BURDITT: What are the goals for this building? Are there any goals for this building? What should we be doing in relation to the master plan for the sale of this building? DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 MR. EDWARDS: I think it would employ you to be responsible to the functioning, first of all, the safe and effective functioning of the area such as, you know, and I think that speaks for the importance of keeping some of the parking on site. Secondly, to the physical attractiveness to the area, the trees and landscaped areas, the oasis in the downtown, there ought to be some, I think, some good thought into giving and keeping that. The character of the area, again, you could say that the facade of the building even though, let's face it, it's not the world's most pretty building but it's the kind of building that is not built anymore and it's a small human scale and contributes to the character of the area. So from the point of view of contribution to the character of the area even if the building is gutted, added on to the top, the existing facade ought to be kept as a way to earmark the character of the area and give some indication to sense of place in the area. It's just like that Yankee Systems building that kind of looks funny and it's been added onto and in not very good ways, but that building still was there for a long time and it DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 speaks to a sense of place. It could have been done better but in some respect it's better than having torn the whole thing down and put up some glass wall modern building. MR. HOWARD: I think that some of your mission statement is compatible with the intent of the master plan. I think what Jonathan said about the historic nature of the area, trying to strengthen the appearance of the downtown Haven Street as esthetically pleasing to downtown center continue historical role as a focal point in town. I think trying to, as we mentioned, those 24 parking spaces go away this is a negative impact on the town so I think in doing something that is going to, I think as your mission statement says, contribute to the vitality of that area. In other words, do something that might promote or have some spin off or effect that would attract people at different times of day or attract other businesses in support of this business. MR. EDWARDS: You could argue how that is kind of iffy. MR. BURDITT: Why don't we have an art center? DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 34 MR. HOWARD: That sounds like it, doesn't it? MR. EDWARDS: When you're valuing types of uses you could say that a good dress shop would probably or good eatery would probably contribute more to the vitality of the area than let's say a bank or office. MR. BURDITT: Good thing Bill Kennedy isn't here tonight. MS. ZIEGLER: We don't need another eatery. MR. PACINO: So really just more the character of the area. MR. EDWARDS: Yes. The whole premise of the master plan is what can be done to accommodate the future while respecting and enhancing the character that the town developed over 350 years. MR. PACINO: What about the 100 year flood plain? MR. EDWARDS: You don't need to worry about it, you're not anywhere close. Jim, if you want to double-check that we got those maps in our office. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 35 MR. BURDITT: Some of these things were stretches. MR. EDWARDS: What happens if you didn't think of it and it comes up to haunt you later on? MR. BURDITT: Oh, yes. MR. PACINO: In terms of the other one we are looking for a little more detailed zoning map. MR. of the full set of engineering office MR. MR. the zoning bylaw. 100 scales. EDWARDS: You want to get Map 13 zoning bylaw maps that the can run off. BLOMLEY: For the zoning? EDWARDS: Yes. Ask for Map 13 of It comes in one to 200 and one to MR. BLOMLEY: That's at the engineer's office. MR. EDWARDS: Jim, I can show you in our office what it looks like. If you want a copy of it it's the engineering source. MR. BLOMLEY: The plan that I put in the book was just Map 54. That's the assessor's map. It's in the front. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 36 MS. ZIEGLER: Here it is. Would that be the same area? MR. EDWARDS: Well, the assessor's map shows the lot and the area and frontage and some of the lot dimensions. Zoning map is from aerial photographs and that shows at least in 1974 what the buildings were like and where the street and curb lines and curb cuts and zoning boundaries and so forth are. MS. ZIEGLER: Would that be the same general area of the zoning map? MR. EDWARDS: No. MS. ZIEGLER: Would the zoning map cover more? MR. EDWARDS: Covers more but you can get it one to 100 or one to 200 scale. And then Mollie raised, I think, earlier the last question on that sheet which was can you make RFP more restrictive than the zoning uses and the answer is sure you can. In fact, I certainly hope you would. I frankly think there's consistency here, the types of uses that are likely to pay you more for the property are likely to be the uses that would be most attractive. Kind of out and that couldn't pay DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 as much would probably be automotive and that large space using manufacturing which can't pay as much per square foot. MR. PACING: How about on the restrictions and special permits, do we want Jim to look at properties around us, a couple of properties over, Bill, in terms of the restrictions and special permits, do we want Jim to look further into that? MR. BURDITT: Somebody probably should. MR. EDWARDS: What would that tell you? MR. PACINO: If there's any restrictions we should be aware of. MR. BURDITT: That may have an impact on what we're trying to do. MR. PACINO: Right. MR. EDWARDS: You might find something, but at least from the point of view of dimensional variances and special permits what you see is what the effect of what there is. There's been no special permits or variances in the last two years and any that were granted before that but weren't exercised would have expired. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 38 MS. ZIEGLER: If you really want to look, I'm interested in one up on Green Street and High Street behind the building. Because people can see what's in front of the building. But what's back there MR. BURDITT: Might there be any restrictions on special permits do you think? MS. ZIEGLER: I don't know. I don't know what all is back there. MR. EDWARDS: Houses. MS. ZIEGLER: Are there service stations in there and a garage? MR. EDWARDS: I guess maybe it's a mute point because it would probably take you 10 minutes just to give the rank of addresses on Green Street or High Street. MS. ZIEGLER: I can do it. I'll go look at it. MR. EDWARDS: MS. ZIEGLER: MR. EDWARDS: just a few minutes. MS. ZIEGLER: MR. EDWARDS: Ask Jim She You Go Eileen Shaw. will do it. can look them up in can go and look. to Eileen and say do DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 39 you have any Board of Appeals' decisions for these addresses. MS. ZIEGLER: Anybody want anything on Haven Street? MR. BURDITT: If you could find one or two address, the next two addresses up and down, the abutters and next to the abutters or something. MR. EDWARDS: Abutters to abutters within 300 feet. MR. BURDITT: Yes. MS. ZIEGLER: Okay. MR. PACINO: That pretty much covers everything here. MR. PACINO: Then we moved on to, we talked about the structural viability of the building. There is as long as there's a single story use of the building. If we go to more than one story there is a structural problem with the building. It will not support a second story. MS. ZIEGLER: That building has a cement roof covering with rubber coating, right? MR. BLOMLEY: Yes, that's correct. It's wood plank with four inches of concrete then the rubber roof, a baluster. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22, 23 24 MS. ZIEGLER: And there are steel girders someplace. MR. BLOMLEY: They run across the structure. The main carrying beam is wood and then there are steel I beams that runoff. MR. EDWARDS: That's the way the Pearl Street school is, wood supporting steel. MS. ZIEGLER: But it's not cement. MR. EDWARDS: No. MR. PACINO: Then we talked about is the property worth more without the building? What was the conclusion we came up? MS. ZIEGLER: The appraisal would do that. MR. PACINO: We talked about do we have to accept the highest bid, EG, what is the bid process. I touched on that a little bit with Ted today. Ted said we can do anything we want. We don't have to take the highest bid. MR. EDWARDS: As long as you put in your RFP. The phrases we did, which is what we said was the town reserves the right to reject any and all bids. MR. PACING: Ted told me on the phone DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 we don't have to even do that. MR. EDWARDS: Okay. MR. PACING: Peter told me a different story. Peter told me exactly what you said. MR. BURDITT: I don't think it hurts. MR. PACINO: That's what Ted said. I said Peter said this, and he said it may be nice to put the criteria you're going to judge it in. MR. HOWARD: Selection criteria. I think that is an area for your bidders to tell them how you're going to make a decision. MS. ZIEGLER: That is our criteria. MR. EDWARDS: Capacity with master plan could be one criteria, that's subjective. Your evaluation of the non-financial considerations can come in, and particularly if you specify to them you can use them and they may outweigh the factor of the highest bid. I don't know what kind of restrictions you're under in terms of DPU and the citizens of the Bay Street Board about accepting the highest bid but I guess that is an internal decision. MR. PACING: I think it's more a case that it's as long as we are going forward with the process. I think Mr. Bartlett is not here tonight DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 but I think he stated pretty much his position that he said he doesn't, his position wouldn't be that as to what is going to happen, just make sure the process is going along properly as to what his position would be and pressure of taking the highest bid. MR. HOWARD: I think I am reading the Pearl Street School selection criteria, included but not limited to the purchase price the degree of acceptability and the town's sole judgment of the proposed method of accommodating the site, local government revenue projected from the proposed development. MS. ZIEGLER: We were discussing that. MR. HOWARD: Qualifications of the bidder to accomplish the financial ability of the bidder, the experience and expertise to manage the development, the quality of the proposed environmental site and building design, and design guidelines of the historical commission in accordance with zoning and building reuse. MR. EDWARDS: They're behind schedule too. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. PACING: Slightly. MR. EDWARDS: Suppose to have closed in April. MR. PACING: Cost of the impact, and Ted said that was probably a good number as any five or 6,000 from what he could tell me. MR. EDWARDS: What does that mean to rebid? MR. PACINO: Rebid it. Reject all bids and go back and rebid it. Ted said it was good numbers is what he told me. Potential reuse that have surfaced to date'. One is the Atlantic Ruben. What we have heard is the rumor that he would move the Brooks Drugstore across the street and expand the Atlantic Food Market. There was an environmental school that wanted to use it for office administration. Art center. MR. EDWARDS: Environmental school? MR. BLOMLEY: Yes. MS. ZIEGLER: Put down gingerbread house. MR. BLOMLEY: Environmental school. MR. EDWARDS: Gingerbread Construction Company. I used to think they were contractors. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 44 MR. BLOMLEY: Environmental school inquiring about the use of the property for administrative offices. MR. EDWARDS: Do they teach environmental science? MR. BLOMLEY: I don't know what the school does but they were interested in using it as an administrative office. MS. ZIEGLER: It's right by the train. MR. EDWARDS: I'm wondering if retail wouldn't contribute more to the viability of the area than a school would. MR. PACINO: The other one Peter had, people who are on the corner at the beauty shop had inquired about the building too as some sort of retail use is what he had mentioned. MS. ZIEGLER: It's too narrow to put a mall, an indoor mall in there. MR. BLOMLEY: I would think it is. MS. ZIEGLER: It makes the rooms too narrow. MR. PACING: Peter mentioned to me on the taxi stand. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. BURDITT: Gone. MS. ZIEGLER: Is it gone? MR. PACING: No. MR. BURDITT: It should MR. PACINO: What I want to do at the next meeting is to try to get Mr. Sweeney here who is on that committee, he is proposing that property be given back to the town and that it be kept as some sort of town owned property for fund-raising purposes. MS. ZIEGLER: The Girl Scouts could go down there and sell cookies. MR. PACING: Exactly. Something like that. MR. EDWARDS: Wouldn't that become a maintenance liability? MR. PACINO: Peter has mentioned that also. MR. BURDITT: Total liability. MR. PACINO: Right. MR. BURDITT: I think it detracts from the sale of the facility. MR. PACINO: I think we ought to have Mr. Sweeney, hear him out and try to line him up for DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 46 the next meeting. Let's have him come in and give us a presentation, a quick one on that. MR. EDWARDS: What about that structure, is that worth keeping? MR. PACING: Well, the original deal, that building was suppose to be knocked down anyway when the taxi stand moved out. We put the ad in the paper to have somebody bid on it and take it away, we got one bid, as a matter of fact, one of the gentlemen behind here bid on the property, I don't know which one. MR. BLOMLEY: Mr. Babcock. MR. PACINO: Mr. Babcock bid on property then 350 came and said, wait a minute, we are looking for a headquarters and this would be a great place to come out and sell our T-shirts and tickets to everything. MR. BURDITT: And it was. MR. HOWARD: It was great. MR. PACING: The deal with them is, yes, you can stay but when you're done the building goes with you. They came forward with another proposal. MR. BURDITT: Keep it for another 50 DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 years. MS. ZIEGLER: Well, they have money, didn't they make money? MR. EDWARDS: I can see a lot better use for it than that. Put it in the bank and let it earn lots of compound interest for 50 years. MR. BURDITT: You're talking about that for the 400 going in? MR. HOWARD: Is this committee planning to evaluate those half a dozen proposed uses and see if we want to enhance or structure the RFP to enhance certain uses and restrict or discourage other uses? MR. BURDITT: Yes, I think that is the purpose of this committee. MS. ZIEGLER: We are not concerned who made inquires about it, we really shouldn't know who made inquiries about it. MR. HOWARD: Yes, we should. And if there are any of those uses that don't fit certainly in some generic way we could address those. MR. EDWARDS: Well, the Bear Hill and Pearl Street RFP resulted from two parties inquiring and making serious offers, executed an interest in DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the property. We went out with RFP to give everybody a chance to get involved and went through the legal process. We talked about what does the community want. MR. BLOMLEY: What he was referring to at the previous meeting about contacts, we can't give anybody an unfair advantage over another person. All we are doing is making a note on what we have received. MR. HOWARD: Yes, but I think they're illustrative MS. ZIEGLER: Nobody was allowed to view the building or anything of that nature. MR. HOWARD: I think it's illustrative of the potential uses that people would want to put that building to, and as Jonathan stated earlier RFP can be more restrictive than the zoning. MR. BLOMLEY: Be cautious of the fact that we don't violate any of the laws that are in effect relative to the sale of the property. We're not allowing, nobody is allowed to even view the property. That will come when the RFP goes out and then everybody will be able to view it at the same time under the same circumstances and with all of DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the same information. MR. PACING: Okay. MR. HOWARD: To me that sounds overly restrictive. I would think we'd be out beating a drum and showing all comers. MR. EDWARDS: This is a viable landing, it's not the landfill. MR. HOWARD: Well put. MR. PACINO: We talked about the question what the community actually wanted, and Bill Kennedy was drafting a letter to go out to the Chamber of Commerce to get back from the business community some response and he will probably have that at our next meeting. Then we talked about restricted hours of use. That was our next issue on that. MR. EDWARDS: Why would you want to? MR. PACINO: I think it's an issue. MR. EDWARDS: Well, the selectmen have a policy of no operations from midnight to 6:00 a.m. and that's the only public restriction I think there is other than blue laws. MR. BURDITT: Yes. MR. EDWARDS: I'd kind of think it DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 would be unfair to anybody to be under further restrictions than that. MR. PACING: Last one he questioned with the land bank committee knew about the property and told Ben Nickols who has no data on the property which we found surprising. MR. EDWARDS: Ben has plenty of data about this property. That basically took care of where we stood in terms of the data request. MS. ZIEGLER: Our uses, do we want to discuss those? MR. PACING: Yes, why don't I get that one up there. We've discussed this somewhat. MR. EDWARDS: Have you evaluated proposals received? Sounds familiar. MR. PACING: What we did at the last meeting we just talked, we put some ideas what does the highest bid mean. We were kind of pulling in some criteria as to how we are going to evaluate. MR. EDWARDS: You may want to say best acceptable bid because the highest could be construed as monetary. MS. ZIEGLER: We thought we would have to do that. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 51 MR. BURDITT: That was one of the ones we just showed him on the previous chart didn't have to accept the highest. MR. EDWARDS: Unless you don't say anything different or if you specify other criteria then the law assumes highest monetary offer. MR. BURDITT: We rejected the only bid on Pearl Street the first time. That was the highest and it was rejcted. MR. PACINO: What does best acceptable bid mean? MR. BURDITT: Like I said, we rejected Pearl Street a year, year and a half ago because we wouldn't accept the only bid that came in because it was not acceptable as far as we were concerned. MR. EDWARDS: In fact, Pearl Street School, the final round, the slightly higher bid was rejected because it was determined that the bidder was not qualified. MR. BURDITT: It was an unacceptable bid because there were qualifications that we didn't accept. MR. PACINO: Jim just reminded that we do have in the original town meeting article DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 restrictions that cannot be less than the appraisal. MR. BURDITT: Well, that is part of the acceptable. MR. PACINO: Right. MR. EDWARDS: If you're not going to reveal the appraisal amount there's no point in putting that in the RFP but that's the charge for reviewing and acceptance. MR. BURDITT: Still best acceptable. That is one of the steps of acceptance. MR. HOWARD: Purchase price is one of the criteria. MR. BURDITT: That's correct. MR. HOWARD: How we evaluate that is a MR. BURDITT: That's among us within the RFP. MR. EDWARDS: I think the town would be concerned with maximizing, within acceptability of the other categories, maximizing the potential tax revenue. MR. HOWARD: Pearl Street local government revenue projected from the proposal DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 development compared with the potential cost of municipal services related to the proposal development. MR. PACING: That is what we started jotting down some of these items, off site impact, what town infrastructure would be, revenue only should be, absolute highest price and what value it has on the impact on the neighborhood and businesses. MR. EDWARDS: You might want to say cost of town services required. MR. HOWARD: That is infrastructure. MR. EDWARDS: No, because some of them may be operational costs. MR. BURDITT: If you need a police officer to do traffic. MR. EDWARDS: Possibly. MS. ZIEGLER: Amount of water they are going to use or amount of electricity they are going to use. MR. EDWARDS: Light department wants them to use lots of electricity. MR. PACING: That wouldn't be covered by town. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. EDWARDS: I don't know the examples, but I think in order to play it safe infrastructre is taken as capital expense but there are potential operational expenses that still would offset any tax revenue. MR. BURDITT: Town operational expense or MR. EDWARDS: Or just plain town expenses, monthly town service costs. MR. BURDITT: It's infrastructure, so just breaking down. MR. HOWARD: How about the qualifications and financial ability of the bidder to make the bid acceptable? I mean, it has to come from somebody that has some money and be able to supply the project. It's somebody that is going to MR. BURDITT: That doesn't mean anything. Walmart had all the money in the world and we didn 't close with th em. MR. HOWARD: That's true. MS. ZIEGLER: Bear hill too. MR. EDWARDS: But they were acceptable. But th e issue of responsible bidder, I DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 could answer this and say, hey, I'll give you three million bucks for it but I ain't got three million bucks and I may be responsible but that may be the highest bid. MR. BURDITT: We don't need to take what is the best acceptable bid and your ability to pay. One of the things we did before we closed, I won't say closed but signed the purchase and sale with Doleman on Bear Hill was to check all his financials. MR. EDWARDS: That's exactly what Dick said. MR. HOWARD: That is what I said. MR. EDWARDS: You should specify that that is a criteria. MR. PACINO: Financial viability. MR. EDWARDS: And ability to carry out the proposal. MR. HOWARD: Whatever it is. MR. HOWARD: Would you want to sell this to a guy that is going to open a restaurant and he's never run a restaurant before? I don't know. MR. EDWARDS: The more you state to that effect the more you broaden your ability to DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 weed out bad proposals. MR. BURDITT: We have done that with some restaurants. MR. HOWARD: I know. MR. EDWARDS: We have a pretty lousy track record. MR. PACINO: Why don't we say just ability. MR. MR. MR. MR. you shouldn't crib RPF. EDWARDS: Ability to do what? HOWARD: Or qualifications. PACING: Ability to operate. EDWARDS: There's no reason why the town's language in its own MR. BURDITT: We absolutely will. MS. ZIEGLER: Are these all on a computer? MR. EDWARDS: Yes, they are on my computer. MS. ZIEGLER: Word Perfect. MR. EDWARDS: Word Star. MR. PACINO: Presently discussed items, not items we are formally adding to the list. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 57 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. ZIEGLER: We changed the top and put a star. Best acceptable we changed that wording. MR. BURDITT: Don't worry about it. MR. PACING: I think that would stay. MS. ZIEGLER: Just need MR. EDWARDS: I suppose one criteria would be in the likelihood of enhancing business, overall business viability of downtown or economic. MR. PACINO: Value impact on neighborhood and businesses. MR. EDWARDS: Okay. MR. BURDITT: Yes. MR. HOWARD: How about the quality of the proposed development, other proposed use, is that an issue? MR. EDWARDS: Wouldn't that be covered by site plan review? MR. HOWARD: I don't know. That is too late, isn't it? MS. ZIEGLER: No, it's continued on the site plan review. MR. HOWARD: Here you're trying to come up with selection criteria, is the quality of DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the development MR. BURDITT: I think what we say will be the best acceptable bid. MR. HOWARD: I thought these items are defining that, defining what we mean by best available bid or acceptable bid. MR. BURDITT: Yes. I guess I look at something like that adherent what I would. MR. EDWARDS: The problem is MR. BURDITT: We could put it down. MR. EDWARDS: You may get into trouble if you don't specify, at least put in some words to hang your hat on. MR. BURDITT: Sure. MR. EDWARDS: Otherwise you could get called on the carpet as being arbitrary and capricious. People get nasty if they don't win a bid and they start looking for reasons to MR. HOWARD: Protest the bid. MR. PACING: Quality of use. MR. EDWARDS: Yes. MR. BURDITT: Yes. MR. PACING: We're going to revisit this at the next meeting anyway. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 59 MR. EDWARDS: Have you received an appraisal yet? MR. PACING: No, we have not gotten to that point yet. That was one of the items for discussion tonight but I think we have to hold off on that discussion until we could MR. BURDITT: We are scheduled for next week. MR. PACINO: Right, the 17th. Are we set here for the moment? Then we came up we threw out some ideas on reuses. MR. HOWARD: Now you're talking. MR. PACING: Our own use. Most of us came up with retail space of the office building, medical buildings, some sort of day care center. MS. ZIEGLER: You can't do that under Business B. MR. PACINO: Right, we just threw out ideas here. MR. BURDITT: It may be a nice idea but maybe that was part of the zoning changes we had talked about whether we can or can't. MR. EDWARDS: I think it's a lousy DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 spot for day care. MR. BURDITT: Right across from the train station. MR. PACING: That was the key. Then we threw out the idea of a nursery which is kind of little bit related. Commercial venture, tiny tot gym which I thought was very interesting, movie theatre, funeral parlor, hardware store, veterinarian, arts center, nursing home, assisted care facility, adult day care facility, medical clinic, school administrative offices and a bowling alley. MR. HOWARD: Wouldn't you love it? MR. PACING: We came up with, we went back and said, then we threw it back and said what won't enhance the area? And then we said a movie theatre probably would not, some of us, I can't say all of us. MS. ZIEGLER: Not all of us. MR. PACING: Not all of us said a movie theatre might possibly not. The nursing home would possibly enhance the area. MR. EDWARDS: How about a school? MR. PACINO: I think we got that. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. EDWARDS: I don't think you got a market for medical building. That's my opinion. MR. BURDITT: But everybody was just throwing out everything we could possibly put into this. MR. PACINO: Throwing out ideas. MR. EDWARDS: Chances are it will be something you never thought of. MR. PACING: We could add a bakery here. MR. BURDITT: Pizza parlor. MS. ZIEGLER: No more eateries. MR. PACINO: Then we talked about restrictions. Some of us may want to see restrictions. MR. BURDITT: We have been working, it hasn't been all fun and games. MR. PACINO: Talked about the hours of operation but really we kind of addressed that already on that. We talked about the driveway access from Haven Street and onto Haven Street. We really felt there is a curb cut there now and really felt this would not be a great thing to do. We said everything must be in accordance with the town DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 bylaws and zoning. We talked about no adult entertainment facility on the property. We talked about no gas station. MR. BURDITT: Did we vote on that? MR. PACINO: Didn't you come up with that one? We had no gas station, no automotive uses, no commercial arcade type uses and we particularly weren't fond of the idea of biotech waste hazardous material storage area. MR. EDWARDS: You might want to think about maybe no warehouse storage. MS. ZIEGLER: That's permitted there, yes. MR. PACING: Warehouse. MR. EDWARDS: No warehouse or bulk storage.. That would be a real waste. MR. EDWARDS: Dick, maybe we should go down the zoning bylaws and check off what we don't like that would be allowed. MS. ZIEGLER: Talking about no enclosed storage. MR. EDWARDS: No warehousing enclosed storage, bulk storage. MS. ZIEGLER: That is allowed in DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Business B. MR. EDWARDS: I know but it wouldn't meet your mission statement or your goals or master plan goals. MS. ZIEGLER: That's correct. MR. HOWARD: Automotive uses is this whole category here so car washes. MR. EDWARDS: Anything under automotive. Laboratory maybe not. Printing and publish, these were all put into here at the time industrial uses because they were felt to have an undesirable impact. Printing and public use to have heavy liner type and ink, that sort of thing. MR. BURDITT: Which really isn't an impact now. MR. EDWARDS: We probably ought to look at this stuff again, Dick. MR. EDWARDS: Enclosed storage. MR. HOWARD: We covered that. MR. EDWARDS: Accessory uses don't really apply. MS. ZIEGLER: Is that only when it's partial rezoned to something else, or what are accessory uses? DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 64 MR. EDWARDS: Easiest example, let's say you have a florist, a garden supply place, you want to put up a greenhouse, that is accessory use. Let's say you're a retail computer dealer and you want to put up, you want to do a closed storage for your inventory then that is an accessory use. MS. ZIEGLER: Okay. MR. BURDITT: If we had the MS. ZIEGLER: So if we had a bakery wholesaling and we want to put a consumer service in, retail store we could do that. MR. BURDITT: If we had that bakery that we talked about and sold on the property the excess capacity is that accessory use so that you're servicing, you know, we're talking about the MR. PACING: Gingerbread. MR. BURDITT: If you were to make gingerbread there and sell some of it there and distribute the rest of it what you distribute is accessory because you have a factory to build on or to bake all of these. MR. EDWARDS: First of all, I'm not sure it would stand up in court that a bakery is really manufacturing. Secondly DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. BURDITT: True. Is a bakery wholesale? MR. EDWARDS: It could be wholesale, it could be consumer service. MR. BURDITT: It's both. MR. EDWARDS: If it's both that's fine. MR. BURDITT: So that's allowable then. MR. EDWARDS: Yes. This is just a maybe. It's pecular, the zoning does allow financial institutions and I am wondering if they are just to promote the vitality of the area. You walk down Haven Street and there's a gap on one side by the post office and the masonic building and on the other side there's Mass Bank and a parking lot. It's like having, you know, my five year old with her two top teeth missing. MS. ZIEGLER: Maybe BayBank would want I mean Bank of Boston would want to come up there. MR. EDWARDS: Is that the place for BayBank? MS. ZIEGLER: I don't know. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. EDWARDS: For any bank compared to something that might draw more customers. MR. PACINO: Let me say that maybe the type of operation the businesses around would want something that is going to draw employees who are not going to compete with other businesses down there. MR. EDWARDS: I wouldn't argue with that. Maybe that is another perspective. MS. ZIEGLER: Maybe Bank of Boston wants a bigger area, maybe that would suit that. MR. EDWARDS: Because people want something doesn't mean it's good for the town or the area. MR. BURDITT: That's true. MR. EDWARDS: If I'm can, and Dick is being asked to say what's good for the town, that doesn't necessarily have to coincide with what is good for business x or business Y. MR. BURDITT: I'm not sure. MR. HOWARD: Aren't there enough banks in town and enough pizza parlors and gas stations? MS. ZIEGLER: The one on Main Street is moving over there. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. BURDITT: I'm not saying to restrict a bank. What we are trying to look at here are restrictions, desired restrictions. I don't know that we want to say no banks. MR. EDWARDS: Maybe you give less priority to a proposed financial institution than you would something that you thought may be a positive contribution. MR. BURDITT: Maybe, depending on the value of the bids. MR. HOWARD: How about fast food, would you want to restrict it to fast food, I mean, no fast foods? MR. EDWARDS: Have fun with that one. MS. ZIEGLER: I don't want to see a food establishment in there. I think we have enough. MR. restriction on it? MS. would get rid of t MR. MR. food restriction I BURDITT: But do we want to put a ZIEGLER: I think we should. That he bakery. BURDITT: Fast food is not PACINO: If we stuck in a fast don't think that would be DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 bakery. MR. HOWARD: Do you want Wendy's in there? MS. ZIEGLER: No, not really. MR. BURDITT: Is there a legal description on what fast food really means? MR. EDWARDS: That is up to the zoning officer to say. MR. BURDITT: If you can drop in and get a cup coffee and doughnut because there are booths there is Dunkin Donuts a fast food? MR. HOWARD: Yes. MR. EDWARDS: I'd say no but just because MR. HOWARD: He is the zoning officer. MR. EDWARDS: What some other zoning officer might say I don't know. MS. ZIEGLER: How about Friendly's? MR. EDWARDS: No, because you sit down and you're waited on. MS. ZIEGLER: You can also have takeout. MR. EDWARDS: You can call ahead and drop by and pick it up when it's ready. It's Taco DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Bell, Arby's type things that call themselves fast food. MR. PACINO: What is the name of the Chinese restaurant? Is that considered fast food, the takeout Chinese restaurant in the center? Would that fall under the definition of takeout fast food? MR. EDWARDS: Probably not fast food. Again, a lot of this stuff is fine line but those establishments that have built themselves as fast food I don't think they could deny the designation. MS. ZIEGLER: What would the definition of restaurant be? MR. EDWARDS: Frankly, most clearly it's a place you go in and you sit down and you're waited on. MR. HOWARD: McDonald's oh, waited on. That has a wait staff. MR. EDWARDS: Yes. The Metro is clearly a restaurant. The Chinese place may be borderline. McDonald's is.clearly fast food. Variations go in between them. MS. ZIEGLER: Papa Ginos is fast food. MR. EDWARDS: That is probably one of DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 those borderline. MR. BURDITT: So is Capri Pizza. MR. EDWARDS: It's kind of both. It does have aspects of a restaurant. MR. BURDITT: Same thing, what is a peddler versus a MR. HOWARD: Salesman. MR. BURDITT: No peddler for food. Dc you need a peddler's license versus just one of these canteen trucks? MR. HOWARD: Can you deny something? MR. BURDITT: Yes, we did. That was because he had to come for a peddler's license, but the question came up he is serving out of his truck, why is that different than a canteen truck? Canteen truck does not have to come to us for a license but peddlers do. MS. ZIEGLER: What is the difference? MR. BURDITT: That's the question. MS. ZIEGLER: What's the canteen truck there in the morning. MR. EDWARDS: You know the canteen truck services a limited clientele. The peddler services anybody who stops at an intended to be DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 location to attract the general public. MR. BURDITT: Canteen truck is not only mobile but it has a number of locations to go to. MR. PACING: Put down here restrictions on fast food restaurant. MS. ZIEGLER: I'd say restaurant and fast food. MR. BURDITT: No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't restrict it. MR. EDWARDS: Like there's a rock, it looks like a rock then you put a microscope and it's almost all air. Scientifically it's the same with zoning stuff. MR. HOWARD: It's all air, is that what you're saying? MR. EDWARDS: Kind of like a rock, you start examining it and it kind of dissipates almost into thin air. MR. BURDITT: I wouldn't mention it. MS. ZIEGLER: I think we can,get rid of it other ways. Doesn't enhance the area or something. MR. BURDITT: Yes, I do too. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 72 MR. PACINO: Any other restrictions that we can think of? Again, this is a discussion item. MR. EDWARDS: Not a decided item. MR. PACINO: Not a decided item. MR. EDWARDS: I think you need Phil as a referee for the selectmen's meeting. MR. PACINO: This is now the fifth or sixth time I have been the chairman of a committee. Of course we can have an alumni meeting of the finance committee as usual. MR. BURDITT: Yes, we could. MR. EDWARDS: Can I make a basic comment first, Phil, while I'm reading this? Since you can put further restrictions than what zoning has, why at this point for one purpose with one of the perspectives on one property why mess around with the zoning. MR. BURDITT: That is why we needed your input. Talk to us about it. MR. PACING: Part of our charge under three, determining proposed changes in zoning and/or other proposed restrictions, that was one of the items we're looking at. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. HOWARD: So if zoning is more restrictive than you want to be then you would propose some changes but to impose restrictions you can MR. EDWARDS: That goes beyond zoning. MS. ZIEGLER: You said we can't change zoning because it's plot zoning. MR. EDWARDS: You can change the bylaw, the text. You could say it's still Business B. Business B won't allow automotive and if town meeting passes that that's great. MS. ZIEGLER: We could change and say we could allow private kind MR. EDWARDS: But it would be for all Business B, every property in Business B. MR. PACINO: Could we designate municipal reuse? MR. EDWARDS: You said it's not a municipal building otherwise the proceeds go to the town, so that is an interesting question for town counsel and maybe your counsel. MS. ZIEGLER: It's been turned over to the selectmen, han't it? MR. BURDITT: Yes. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. PACING: No. MR. BURDITT: Town meeting did this. MR. PACINO: The commission has not taken a formal meeting yet. MR. EDWARDS: All I'm saying is, I don't care, but all I'm saying is you got to be consistent. Clearly Pearl Street School is a municipal building. MS. ZIEGLER: It was turned over by the school department. MR. EDWARDS: But the light department building has been a different history and the matters decided by town meeting but it's not a municipal building. MR. PACING: You're saying we could not overlay a district there, a reuse district. MR. EDWARDS: Well, then that result since any buyer is going to have to go through site plan review I suspect the net result is mute, wouldn't you say? MR. HOWARD: I think the regular site plan is more, probably gives us more flexibility and is a better bylaw than the municipal or reuse. MR. EDWARDS: CPCT got you coming and DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 75 going so in some respect it doesn't matter what you call it. MS. ZIEGLER: I don't want kindergarten use in Business B prohibited. MR. EDWARDS: Don't ask because I don't know. That was done before I got here. I don't know. MR. BURDITT: If nothing maybe this will trigger something to be looked at. MR. HOWARD: Sure. MR. BURDITT: From the discussion we are having tonight. MR. PACING: Obvious overlay district that's a question I had about whether you could cite an overlay district then put down in my mind MR. BURDITT: I'm not saying for this specific, what I'm saying is the general things we're discussing with the different districts. Maybe we will give them some, we brought some issues up maybe that can be looked at to change the different uses. MR. EDWARDS: Phil, I think that in terms of public review and control your site plan is just as effective as a municipal building special DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 permit would be. MR. PACING: We struggled with this because some of the members didn't feel they had enough data as to go through this. First item was, my concern as I raised before, there's restrictions on industrial use in that zone. I just wonder if that is going to restrict us in the point of anybody going in there. That was a concern I had, again, a private kindergarten, apartment condo, if somebody wants to come and make an apartment building or condo that they could not do that under present zoning. Then we discussed what are the time implications and delays that that would have on the process? Then again, we are addressing here zoning changes could be via the RFP which you alluded to about putting restrictions there. MR. EDWARDS: I just think to hurry up some changes to the Business B zoning for the purpose of taking care of needs of one property would result in less than optimal zoning change from other perspectives. MR. HOWARD: But if there is something whose time has come to change over all of Business B this is just the trigger. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. BURDITT: One of the things we are looking for is timing to go to the selectmen by the 15th of September so whatever should be brought to the town meeting can be brought to the town meeting. I think maybe if you want to look at some adjustments to zoning, any zoning changes total that might want to be made and timing. MR. EDWARDS: Dick, the more enjoyable part of the August 22nd meeting would be the first two hours which is about the potential zoning amendments and that may be a good time to raise these matters with the rest of the CPDC. MS. ZIEGLER: Especially some of these definitions on industrial use. MR. PACING: Okay. MR. EDWARDS: You may want to give CPDC some input as soon as you can as to what you think that some zoning change is critical then you should let them know previously before the 22nd. MS. ZIEGLER: We're meeting again next Wednesday. MR. PACINO: Again on the 17th. MS. ZIEGLER: Hopefully we will have a quorum. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. PACING: We better. MR. EDWARDS: I guess in trying to put myself in your shoes, I don't see that there are any significant zoning problems that you have other than there may be some uses that may be desireable from your perspective that wouldn't be allowed. MR. PACINO: Okay. Last chart coming up. MR. EDWARDS: It should be pointed out that also our bylaws do allow for use variances issued by the Board of Appeals. That is ultimate safety. MS. ZIEGLER: Is this SPA? MR. EDWARDS: No, it's use, variances are allowed in our bylaws by the Board of Appeals. MS. ZIEGLER: Even though it says no in that area? MR. EDWARDS: If you go to use variance it changes the no to the yes for your specific proposal and your specific property. MS. ZIEGLER: Somebody really was pushing a private kindergarten down there that would be the best way to go. MR. EDWARDS: If somebody wanted to do DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a private kindergarten there they could go to the Board of Appeals for use of a variance. MS. ZIEGLER: Okay. MR. EDWARDS: Seldom applied for but that provision does exist. MR. PACINO: Okay. Down to the last chart. Our original agenda, again, this is all for informational purposes. We plan to review the data we went over tonight. We will have to do this again at our next meeting to update the other members. Again, we will discuss the appraisal requirement at our next meeting. I don't think we should get into it at this point. Other proposed restrictions, again, we will discuss that at our next meeting also. And zoning restrictions or how we should or methods, we actually put a slash here. Do it as part of the RFP. As recommended Jim was going to contact Jonathan. He clearly did that. MR. EDWARDS: I can verify this. MR. PACINO: Phil was going to contact Dick Howard which I did. Get more supplies which we have. MR. EDWARDS: I contacted Jim to have coffee. DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 80 MR. PACINO: I was going to contact the general manager, which I have, on the reuse items which, again, I will at our next meeting. We will bring that up again to revisit again. We have prior RFP for the appraisal. MR. BLOMLEY: That is in the blue books tonight. MR. PACING: And RFP on the property is in the blue books. And last but not least, notify absent members which we will do. MS. ZIEGLER: Next time I will bring restrictions. MR. BURDITT: Are these RPF for appraisal or RFP? MR. BLOMLEY: No, the first item is the previous RFP for the appraisal. The balance of them. MR. BURDITT: Okay. MR. BLOMLEY: Some of them are RFP for the other property. MR. PACINO: Okay. Is there anything else that should be discussed at the next meeting? MR. EDWARDS: Do you need me to come back? DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 81 MS. ZIEGLER: Can Dick be here? MR. HOWARD: No. Dick is on vacation next week. MR. BURDITT: Yes, we need Jonathan. MR. PACINO: Are you available next week? MR. EDWARDS: Yes. MS. ZIEGLER: Here at 6:30. MR. BURDITT: In this room? MR. BLOMLEY: Why don't we come here. Do you want to meet here? MS. ZIEGLER: That's up to you. MR. PACINO: I just assume meet here. MR. BLOMLEY: Yes. MR. PACINO: Change the posting because I have a posting for the room up there. MR. PACING: Anything else? MR. BURDITT: I move we close the informal discussion we've been having. MR. PACING: Okay. (Whereupon the discussion was concluded. at 8:25 p.m.) DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC. 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS) SUFFOLK, SS. I, Linda Holmes, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, do hereby certify that there came before me on the 10th day of August, 1994 at 6:50 p.m. the person herein named, who was by me duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of his knowlede touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this cause; that he was thereupon examined upon his oath, and his examination reduced to typewriting under my direction; and that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness. I further certify that I am neither attorney or counsel for, nor related to or employed by, any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken, and further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially interested in the action. In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 26th day of August, 1994. S Notary Pub is Commission expires 5/16/97 DORIS M. JONES & ASSOCIATES, INC.